tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post3918355801267126196..comments2023-06-28T22:58:28.247+10:00Comments on Sixth In Line: You cannot shame the deadElisabethhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-7815389066460781852012-12-17T09:46:39.536+11:002012-12-17T09:46:39.536+11:00I guess the abuse your dad may have experienced go...I guess the abuse your dad may have experienced got passed on. It seems that abuse is a thing that goes on from one generation to the next. What is sadder is that religion and sins being bad have had little impact at correcting a serious flaw. Even religious teachers harmed others! <br />Something seems to be very wrong in a corrupted mind. Few ever break out of the pattern. Not sure if the word shame is able to make a hurt better but a more open discussion that's now coming along might help. <br />Heidrun Khokhar, KleinsteMottehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16174142810114806410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-27755482079426264752012-12-07T19:32:00.552+11:002012-12-07T19:32:00.552+11:00I suppose you can shame the dead in the eyes of th...I suppose you can shame the dead in the eyes of the living Kath, even if the dead are spared its impact in life. I suppose, it all depends on your perspective on the afterlife. How dead is dead?<br /><br />Thanks for the kind thoughts, Kath. Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-30653682455063633702012-12-07T19:16:47.682+11:002012-12-07T19:16:47.682+11:00Jim mentioned the notorious Jimmy Saville ,too, Ph...Jim mentioned the notorious Jimmy Saville ,too, Philip, And yes, you're right, posterity will judge JS and shame him forever. Even if it can no longer touch him, it touches his reputation forevermore. <br /><br />Thanks, Philip. Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-16814321519705599742012-12-07T19:14:16.677+11:002012-12-07T19:14:16.677+11:00My father was 25 when his first child was born ad ...My father was 25 when his first child was born ad he would have been around 44 when the last came along, Kirk. That's not so old to me though in my father's time it might have been. He was born in 1917 and died in 1982.<br /><br />I don't ascribe my father's difficulties to his age when his children were born, more to his experiences in childhood with his own parents, especially his abusive father. But you can never really know for sure what drives these things. Age. early familial experience, migration, war poverty etc. <br /><br />Thanks, Kirk. Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-23179142267115145002012-12-07T19:08:29.368+11:002012-12-07T19:08:29.368+11:00Yes, Jim, we have heard here about Jimmy Saville a...Yes, Jim, we have heard here about Jimmy Saville and his behaviour, all the damaged souls in his wake. Shame is such a powerful emotion. It has a contagious effect and often we feel shame on behalf of others who should feel ashamed instead. <br /><br />We all do things of which we're ashamed. It'd be a worry if we didn't. The burden of shamelessness, unless of course it's foisted on us by others.<br /><br />This poem to your father is poignant indeed. I remember a time before my husband's father died when he, my husband, tried to talk to his father about past events and hod father said he'd take his secrets with him to the grave. An awful response and in context very provocative. <br /><br />It's a generational thing perhaps, this competition between fathers and sons. So very sad.<br /><br />Thanks, Jim and I'm sorry to take so long to respond. I've had a hectic time back from Varuna.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-77140807491744753842012-12-07T08:55:45.392+11:002012-12-07T08:55:45.392+11:00I certainly hope the future is less troubled for t...I certainly hope the future is less troubled for those who travel after me, River, though not too untroubled. Too much freedom from trouble can lead to a sort of stagnation I fear, but of course too much trouble is worse.<br /><br />Thanks, River. <br />Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-52178071729258773822012-12-07T08:04:14.378+11:002012-12-07T08:04:14.378+11:00I am persistent, Mary La, but even I can slow down...I am persistent, Mary La, but even I can slow down at times. Sorry therefore for the long delay between responses.<br /><br />Thanks, Mary La. Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-40539334420535716802012-12-07T08:02:58.226+11:002012-12-07T08:02:58.226+11:00I agree, Birdie, we need to drag the 'crap'...I agree, Birdie, we need to drag the 'crap' out of the closet, otherwise it stinks the place up for everyone for evermore. <br /><br />That said, it's not easy to do and there are plenty who'd prefer a veneer of respectability in spite of the background stench. <br /><br />Thanks, Birdie. Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-80128626978721651882012-12-05T09:03:24.272+11:002012-12-05T09:03:24.272+11:00I think you can shame the dead but, better still, ...I think you can shame the dead but, better still, reveal what they did and show current and future generations how destructive and soul destroying abuse (and the secrecy behind it) is.<br /><br />Your determination and bravery shines through, Elisabeth.MedicatedMoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08609190990579743429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-52406735000920582942012-12-05T06:23:51.749+11:002012-12-05T06:23:51.749+11:00You cannot shame the dead ...
Perhaps not. After...You cannot shame the dead ... <br />Perhaps not. After all, when one's dead nothing matters to them, but, as in the case the once "honoured" Jimmy Savile of Top of the Pops fame, the truth about shameful acts will put the record straight.PhilipHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06811831703263176415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-17790834332641006972012-12-05T03:15:36.856+11:002012-12-05T03:15:36.856+11:00I believe you've mentioned in the past that yo...I believe you've mentioned in the past that you were in college sometimes during the 1970s, so that gives me some idea of your age. You believe the picture was taken during "Preud's time" Freud died in 1939, but I'm thinking you mean Freud's heyday, roughly 1899 to 1915. The way people are dressed in that picture does indicate it's from that era, with the exception of that young woman seated in the chair at the extreme right. She's showing a bit of leg, which I think wouldn't have come into fashion until a few years later, though her legs crossed might have pushed her hem upwards. The reason I'm going on about all this, is that if your father was schoolboy's age in 1915, even in 1920, he would have been up there in years by the time you were born. He would have been a little older than your mother, too. Do you think having a wife and kids at a later age might have been a problem for your father, and been a contributing factor in the way he treated, or mistreated, you all? Kirkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02155991693956178030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-24578272885274099422012-12-05T02:13:56.376+11:002012-12-05T02:13:56.376+11:00Maybe you can’t shame the dead but you can certain...Maybe you can’t shame the dead but you can certainly taint their memory. For the last few weeks—although it seems to have died down a bit now—the main headline day after day here in the UK has been concerning the TV presenter Jimmy Savile who died just over a year ago; I can’t imagine it’s not made the news in Australia too. He’s been accused of hundreds of sexual offences and no one now will remember all the good he did in his life; all that’s been blotted out. At the moment, as the law stands, one can’t be stripped of a knighthood posthumously—it’s a living honour—but I can honestly see the law being changed in this instance as public feelings are running high. The shame will have to be carried by his family who’ve already had to have him tombstone removed and have issued a public apology.<br /><br />As for whether Savile felt shame when he was alive we’ll never know. Perhaps he did. I can’t imagine him not being ashamed but that’s me judging him by my standards. I’ve done things in my life that I’ve been told were sinful (e.g. living in sin) but that never stopped me and I did them in the full knowledge that what I was doing was (in some people’s eyes) wrong. Savile was brought up as a Roman Catholic so I refuse to believe that he did what he did without experiencing guilt if not shame although probably both. That he was not publicly vilified is something the public will have to live with but at least the Catholics out there can find some comfort in the fact he will be roasting in hell for all eternity.<br /><br />My father died in 1996, so seventeen years ago almost. I wrote the following poem a day or two after he passed. Technically it’s not a very good poem. I’ve never tried to get it published and never will. My dad, like all of us, did some bad things while he was alive. I know about most of them I think but not in great detail. Even when the opportunities presented themselves I never pressed him to explain or excuse himself and then he died and any chance I might’ve had to learn the truth was gone. I hadn’t been putting off the conversation. I knew it would never take place. I knew as much as I needed and wanted to know. I can understand why you might feel the need to press your mother a little and I’m not saying it’s right or wrong only that I wouldn’t do it. <br /><br /><b>SO?</b><br /><br />So he's dead.<br /><br />So I'll never get the answers<br />to the questions I never asked<br />so he didn't have to lie<br />and make matters worse.<br /><br />So I'll never get to know now<br />but what would I do if I did?<br />It would be all the more for me<br />to have to forgive.<br /><br />And I've got enough to forget as it is.<br /><br />So he's dead.<br />So what?<br /><br />So what?<br /><br /><br /><br />16 January 1996<br /><br>Jim Murdochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12786388638146471193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-13536360033407972562012-12-04T22:29:51.075+11:002012-12-04T22:29:51.075+11:00I can only hope that you find the answers you need...I can only hope that you find the answers you need and that for the future your family and descendants are much less troubled. Riverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14794655013673748992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-47094168697948383212012-12-04T20:55:13.756+11:002012-12-04T20:55:13.756+11:00Excavating the past -- so carefully done and with ...Excavating the past -- so carefully done and with such persistence Elisabeth.Mary LAhttp://louisey.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-56256053896418872042012-12-04T15:05:10.523+11:002012-12-04T15:05:10.523+11:00I do a lot of geneology and have been able to find...I do a lot of geneology and have been able to find out a lot of secrets. One thing though that always seems to keep buried is the molestations. That said, it speaks volumes when a family member (like my grandmother) left the family home and never went back or had any contact. My grandmother had many problems when she was alive. When a family member was asked all that was said was that her father "was not a nice man". When questioned further all that was said was "You don't want to know". <br />I say let us shame the dead. No more secrets. Let us pull this crap out of the closet. Enough. Birdiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03479872783727855901noreply@blogger.com