tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post6187678918475486815..comments2023-06-28T22:58:28.247+10:00Comments on Sixth In Line: It's tough being humanElisabethhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-30510501803697979782010-12-10T13:58:48.233+11:002010-12-10T13:58:48.233+11:00You know, I rather think of psychoanalysis as a ri...You know, I rather think of psychoanalysis as a rich person's indulgence (Woody Allen being a prominent example). If course, I guess a middle class person could do it too if they wanted to throw a major part of their income at it. As to what one might gain, I have no idea.<br /><br />The few Buddhists I've known (who were all Westerners) dressed in loose fitting gray or brown clothes and seemed self-absorbed and at least a little depressed. I rather wondered if they were depressed anyway, and were trying--unsuccessfully, it would appear--to handle their depression through meditation. In any event, I have every confidence that meditation can be a wonderful practice, but, like most things, it can be carried to excess and become destructive.Snowbrushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00436087215476479042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-33516275583347415292010-12-10T12:04:03.606+11:002010-12-10T12:04:03.606+11:00Heh. We always put people on pedestals to convince...Heh. We always put people on pedestals to convince ourselves that they are nothing like us. Doing so is a disservice to both our heroes (if we cannot allow them to be human, we will ultimately destroy them) and to ourselves (if we put those we admire on pedestals, then we excuse ourselves from trying to great works of our own.)<br /><br />There's this quote I love, from a religious leader who was exalted in the tiny village he often visited: "What I am for them, frightens me. What I am with them... comforts me."Phoenixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07477498671080132176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-74401730894379255692010-12-09T21:35:40.369+11:002010-12-09T21:35:40.369+11:00Thanks Robert. I won't take you too seriously...Thanks Robert. I won't take you too seriously and I do mean well, well enough that is.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-4304516630227046152010-12-09T21:22:45.078+11:002010-12-09T21:22:45.078+11:00Up to a point, Art, I agree with you entirely.
...Up to a point, Art, I agree with you entirely. <br /><br />I agree that it's not helpful to hold onto grievances indefinitely but I am concerned about the business of encouraging people to forgive before they've even registered their grievance. We both seem to concur on this point.<br /><br /><br />It's what I mean by false reparation, including creating an appearance of feeling atonement, when no real atonement is intended.<br /><br />For years in Australia our once Prime Minister, John Howard, refused to apologise to the indigenous people here, the aborigines, on the grounds that it was not, is not, this generation but our ancestors who 'may' have committed the atrocities they suffered. <br /><br />How can we be held accountable for our ancestors?<br /><br />I see forgiveness, not as the issuing of an apology for the wrongs one may have committed but sometimes more as an acknowledgment of regret that something terrible has been perpetrated on another, whether by us, through us or by our representatives, including our ancestors. <br /><br />When my children were very young I made the mistake of instituting a system of giving out 'jealousy presents' to those who were not enjoying a birthday on birthdays. I had wanted to soften the blow of sibling rivalry. <br /><br />This is somewhat at a tangent, Art, but I now realise that it would have been and has been more helpful for my children to come to terms with their mixed feelings about their siblings left to face reality- it was not always their birthday - rather than my trying to soften the pain by offering a compensation present to those not enjoying a birthday. <br /><br />I recognise this now as my attempt to soothe my own feelings. False efforts at forgiveness can be like this. They can act as attempts at softening emotional pain and bypassing the work that needs to be done to arrive at genuine forgiveness, if and whenever it's possible. <br /><br />Thanks again, Art.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-33260561714482817002010-12-09T05:01:39.308+11:002010-12-09T05:01:39.308+11:00The Most Excellent Human Quality
If forgiveness h...<a href="http://artdurkee.blogspot.com/2009/10/most-excellent-human-quality.html" rel="nofollow">The Most Excellent Human Quality</a><br /><br />If forgiveness has to be dependent on the offender changing his ways, or showing remorse, it's no wonder it happens so rarely. Really, making forgiveness conditional on the other party showing remorse gives them way too much power over you—by merely withholding their sign of remorse, they can keep you on the hook forever.<br /><br />Forgiveness, it seems to me, is about cutting that string and taking your power back. It's about letting go of the string that ties you together, and that ties you up in knots. Forgiving is a releasing of my own energy back into the world, so that it is available for me to use again, rather than being tied up in knots over something I can't control. Forgiving is something I do to free myself, not the offender. <br /><br />I think the biggest mistake people make is thinking that forgiving the offender means that what they did was okay. Not at all. Forgiveness simply means that it doesn't have power over me anymore. I can forgive someone, free myself, and still not believe that what they did was okay. Depending on what the offense was, which is often a matter of scale, some things seems too trivial to waste that much hatred on. It's bruised ego at that point.<br /><br />People really do like to hold onto their grudges. Why? Because they like to be in the right, to be proven to have been right all along. It's a form of self-righteousness to refuse to forgive: which means it's ultimately a form of ego: my ego righteousness means more than anything else.<br /><br />"Premature forgiveness" seems to me to be an oxymoron, for the simple reason that so many people never forgive at all. It's like saying that it's still too soon to say if the French Revolution has a good outcome: that horse left the barn a long long time ago. <br /><br />Certainly some people can feel coerced into being asked to forgive before they're ready to. But the idea of "false reparation" seems nonsensical to me, as reparations can happen without forgiveness—you can pay somebody a debt while still hating them for causing you the debt. Again, how is that different from self-righteous ego-inflation? I'm unclear that it is.<br /><br />I don't urge people to forgive before enough work's been done. But who gets to decide how much work is enough? It seems to me that holding onto a grudge for several years is too much work. After a certain point, it festers into a woundology that never heals, and becomes self-sustaining long beyond any original insult. This is how feuds can go for generations, long past when the original insult has been forgotten. Again, it comes down to proving oneself right and the other party wrong. Again, it's about ego.<br /><br />As a species we sometimes bend over backwards to avoid doing what we know is right, simply because we feel humiliated if we admit any failings. Admitting we're wrong is even harder for some people than forgiving—but the two things are connected. There's the right way to do things, and there's the easy way, and they're often different. I've often found that practice in admitting when I'm wrong about something has led to empathy about when others screw up, too, which has made them easier to forgive.<br /><br />None of us are perfect. That's what this is all about: perfectionism. Not forgiving is the same as demanding perfection.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-12593902665521223132010-12-09T05:00:39.886+11:002010-12-09T05:00:39.886+11:00The Most Excellent Human Quality
If forgiveness h...<a href="http://artdurkee.blogspot.com/2009/10/most-excellent-human-quality.html" rel="nofollow">The Most Excellent Human Quality</a><br /><br />If forgiveness has to be dependent on the offender changing his ways, or showing remorse, it's no wonder it happens so rarely. Really, making forgiveness conditional on the other party showing remorse gives them way too much power over you—by merely withholding their sign of remorse, they can keep you on the hook forever.<br /><br />Forgiveness, it seems to me, is about cutting that string and taking your power back. It's about letting go of the string that ties you together, and that ties you up in knots. Forgiving is a releasing of my own energy back into the world, so that it is available for me to use again, rather than being tied up in knots over something I can't control. Forgiving is something I do to free myself, not the offender. <br /><br />I think the biggest mistake people make is thinking that forgiving the offender means that what they did was okay. Not at all. Forgiveness simply means that it doesn't have power over me anymore. I can forgive someone, free myself, and still not believe that what they did was okay. Depending on what the offense was, which is often a matter of scale, some things seems too trivial to waste that much hatred on. It's bruised ego at that point.<br /><br />People really do like to hold onto their grudges. Why? Because they like to be in the right, to be proven to have been right all along. It's a form of self-righteousness to refuse to forgive: which means it's ultimately a form of ego: my ego righteousness means more than anything else.<br /><br />"Premature forgiveness" seems to me to be an oxymoron, for the simple reason that so many people never forgive at all. It's like saying that it's still too soon to say if the French Revolution has a good outcome: that horse left the barn a long long time ago. <br /><br />Certainly some people can feel coerced into being asked to forgive before they're ready to. But the idea of "false reparation" seems nonsensical to me, as reparations can happen without forgiveness—you can pay somebody a debt while still hating them for causing you the debt. Again, how is that different from self-righteous ego-inflation? I'm unclear that it is.<br /><br />I don't urge people to forgive before enough work's been done. But who gets to decide how much work is enough? It seems to me that holding onto a grudge for several years is too much work. After a certain point, it festers into a woundology that never heals, and becomes self-sustaining long beyond any original insult. This is how feuds can go for generations, long past when the original insult has been forgotten. Again, it comes down to proving oneself right and the other party wrong. Again, it's about ego.<br /><br />As a species we sometimes bend over backwards to avoid doing what we know is right, simply because we feel humiliated if we admit any failings. Admitting we're wrong is even harder for some people than forgiving—but the two things are connected. There's the right way to do things, and there's the easy way, and they're often different. I've often found that practice in admitting when I'm wrong about something has led to empathy about when others screw up, too, which has made them easier to forgive.<br /><br />None of us are perfect. That's what this is all about: perfectionism. Not forgiving is the same as demanding perfection.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-60176414162465592452010-12-08T23:39:53.983+11:002010-12-08T23:39:53.983+11:00Don't take me seriously it's the last thin...Don't take me seriously it's the last thing I want. You mean well, I know that.R.H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04639593801088008224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-26264798365315221432010-12-08T21:09:32.460+11:002010-12-08T21:09:32.460+11:00I've been thinking about forgiveness a great d...I've been thinking about forgiveness a great deal, Art and I'm a tad wary of premature forgiveness, or the forgiveness that people get into because they can't bear to hold onto their rancor for too long. There's this idea of what Melanie Klein calls 'false reparation'. I think on it often. Too often we're encouraged to forgive before enough work's been done. As well, I think to forgive requires some shift in the party that has done the offending, some sign of remorse or recognition of the wrong that's been done. <br /><br />To me forgiveness is not necessarily a one sided affair. <br /><br />I'll get back to your post, Art. I may have missed your response to my response. I blog between times and often miss valuable communications. Thanks.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-68497589403101848032010-12-08T21:03:32.791+11:002010-12-08T21:03:32.791+11:00There's that song, Kass, 'Is that all ther...There's that song, Kass, 'Is that all there is'. It comes to mind now when you speak of 'disillusion'. Different sources perhaps but you're right, it's hard not to get beyond our disappointments. I hope all's well with you.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-31008954452818805552010-12-08T21:01:10.111+11:002010-12-08T21:01:10.111+11:00Perhaps humorous is the wrong word, Robert.
What ...Perhaps humorous is the wrong word, Robert.<br /><br />What I mean is that I don't intend to be too 'serious' most of the time, Robert. <br /><br />I can't bear to use those LOL type comments but I can understand why other people use them. It's so easy to be misunderstood on line.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-42879958743680680382010-12-08T14:39:46.788+11:002010-12-08T14:39:46.788+11:00I like Jim's comment here, and your reply. You...I like Jim's comment here, and your reply. You've already read my reply, on my own blog. (Although I don't know if you read my reply to your comment there.)<br /><br />I've read three of Goldberg's books, and two of Katagiri Roshi's. His book about the Zen conception of time, Each Moment is the Universe: Zen and the Way of Being Time, is brilliant. <br /><br />The whole thing about pedestals and expectations and imperfections—well, it's important to remember to separate the work from the person, too. For example, Richard Wagner was a terrible human being, who also managed to write some sublimely beautiful music. In the arts we're used to separating the person from the teaching, because a lot of great musicians and artists are not great people—some of my own mentors had serious personal flaws, but were nonetheless great mentors to me, and to others. <br /><br />As imperfection is only human, so is forgiveness.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-44522729078031191712010-12-08T11:59:05.319+11:002010-12-08T11:59:05.319+11:00It's hard not to be disappointed in almost eve...It's hard not to be disappointed in almost everything, but maybe it keeps us striving or at least skirting around the edges of some illusion of perfection.Kasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05233330248952156754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-37744945045788396782010-12-07T23:39:11.206+11:002010-12-07T23:39:11.206+11:00I can't see where you've been humorous.
...I can't see where you've been humorous.<br /> <br />But never fear, levity is my middle name.R.H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04639593801088008224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-33398341104973837582010-12-07T21:00:39.700+11:002010-12-07T21:00:39.700+11:00It makes sense, Christine, the idea that the begin...It makes sense, Christine, the idea that the beginnings of psychoanalysis took place in that 'puritanical' period of child rearing. I too shall think more about it. Thanks.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-29231101000841639532010-12-07T20:56:59.580+11:002010-12-07T20:56:59.580+11:00I wasn't thinking psychosis when I wrote this ...I wasn't thinking psychosis when I wrote this post, Robert, more neurosis, that which most of us suffer. <br /><br />Pockets of madness are in everyone everywhere, but I think I know what you mean about the severely delusional in those whose beliefs skip over reality. <br /><br />I can sometimes exaggerate to make my point. As much as I hope people take me seriously here, I don't want them to take me too seriously. <br /><br />We need room for a touch of levity, though not at all times. It's hard to communicate exactly as I intend in the blogosphere. <br /><br />Thanks for putting me straight, Robert.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-54551358509915954092010-12-07T16:23:57.373+11:002010-12-07T16:23:57.373+11:00'twas from my mind, my post. Not the words of ...'twas from my mind, my post. Not the words of another. I was thinking to get past ideas of 'reality' and the civilising process as being gruesome, hard work... the idea that it it's painful it must be good for you. I was reading somewhere that the discipline and some theories of psychoanalysis which emerged in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century, co incided with the period during which emergence of the more 'puritan' aspects of child rearing and or religious observance - eg evangelical christianity - as well as colonialism etc. Julia Kristeva's biography of Melanie Klein <br />( pp.35-38)I am having a bit of a re think - reaction to that school of thought...Christinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641794618204577036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-13044612401434393712010-12-07T02:28:37.600+11:002010-12-07T02:28:37.600+11:00Well how would you expect a nutty bloke acquitted ...Well how would you expect a nutty bloke acquitted of murder under the Mental Impairment Act to ever be swayed by logic? It's okay for you. <br />I think you should go back to school, you don't know what delusional means; there's never self-doubt with these types, their instructions come from the highest power. And it's not even about religion, it's about power, materialism; you CAN take it with you, all your dough, and be given lots more besides! Everyone gets a Harley Davidson motor bike and a mansion full of dancing girls. There is no crime, no illness, a utopia I guess. <br />Well it's not heaven, not for me, heaven will have challenges, things to achieve, plus dancing girls absolutely.R.H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04639593801088008224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-4811127757159285652010-12-06T22:35:55.646+11:002010-12-06T22:35:55.646+11:00I'm glad the post resonated for you, Cuban, th...I'm glad the post resonated for you, Cuban, this struggle with our human frailty. <br /><br />We'll never get to the end of it, until we die, but at least we can enjoy ourselves along the way, however painful at times. <br /><br />To me the mix of emotions are what make for the richness of most human experience, however fraught.<br /><br />Thanks again, Cuban.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-36622526039063981482010-12-06T22:32:44.259+11:002010-12-06T22:32:44.259+11:00I'm delighted to have you along for my journey...I'm delighted to have you along for my journey, Erin, you of the most beautiful writing. <br /><br />Yes, I was able to sustain those loving feelings for my analyst, even now when we no longer speak regularly. <br /><br />It's powerful stuff - the transference. <br /><br />Thanks, Erin.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-45173660993264350782010-12-06T22:30:16.001+11:002010-12-06T22:30:16.001+11:00I agree, Christopher, that part of excellence is t...I agree, Christopher, that part of excellence is to incorporate error, flaws, imperfections, however you describe them. <br /><br />I know of a young man, a brilliant and promising, young medical student who committed suicide because he could not reach his own high standards. <br /><br />To me this is tragic indeed. Perfectionism in this sense is worse than slovenliness. At least with the latter there's some room to move. <br /><br />Thanks, Christopher.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-85270310708234677992010-12-06T22:26:15.637+11:002010-12-06T22:26:15.637+11:00We have to keep on searching for the good stuff, T...We have to keep on searching for the good stuff, TaraDharma despite all our disillusionment and awareness of the imperfections of ourselves and others.<br /><br />Otherwise, what would be the point of it all?<br /><br />ThanksElisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-87402582076109857132010-12-06T22:24:17.588+11:002010-12-06T22:24:17.588+11:00RH the next life for your 'impaired' frien...RH the next life for your 'impaired' friend sounds mightily like that place we learned about when I was a kid, that plave the nuns called Heaven. <br /><br />I'm not surprised your friend was rattled. It doesn't take that much to shake such fixed beliefs, not only are they questionable in their own right, you also have to be good as good i to get there, in fairly rigid terms as I understand it.<br /><br />Thanks, Robert.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-82468497877690097882010-12-06T22:20:23.805+11:002010-12-06T22:20:23.805+11:00Kath, you're a pragmatic soul, clearly but hav...Kath, you're a pragmatic soul, clearly but having read your responses to those sixty questions from Manchurian today, I have a suspicion that you also have your 'idealistic side'. <br /><br />Soft as butter I'd say. Thanks, Kath.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-77461591118237328292010-12-06T22:18:03.059+11:002010-12-06T22:18:03.059+11:00I'll try to dare, Kirk, to be disappointed tha...I'll try to dare, Kirk, to be disappointed that is. I suppose if we never dare then we never allow ourselves the pleasure of expectation, which also has its merits. Thanks kirk.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-24052583538621955572010-12-06T22:07:01.416+11:002010-12-06T22:07:01.416+11:00You're right, Christine. After all the analyt...You're right, Christine. After all the analytic work, 'life is beautiful', hard and tough. <br /><br />Now where did I hear that before?<br /><br />Thanks.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.com