tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post5711967340540688941..comments2023-06-28T22:58:28.247+10:00Comments on Sixth In Line: Think of the starving BiafransElisabethhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-36998920385585361432010-11-07T21:49:29.865+11:002010-11-07T21:49:29.865+11:00I suppose it depends on what you mean by a 'ge...I suppose it depends on what you mean by a 'genuine' case, Robert. Sometimes even the well heeled are desperate. <br /><br />But I take your point about those who might prefer prison to life in the open, especially once they've been thoroughly institutionalised.<br /><br />Thanks, Robert.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-2823211054093828292010-11-07T08:48:16.309+11:002010-11-07T08:48:16.309+11:00When I was in Sale Prison they let an old bloke ou...When I was in Sale Prison they let an old bloke out and next day be was banging on the gates to get back in. He liked the bed and three meals. No booze, that was the only problem. <br />I knew fair dinkum beggars, deadbeats. They were old and alcoholic. Booze had ruined them. If you think these young spongers around Melbourne are genuine cases you're awfully naive.R.H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04639593801088008224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-42938417065076199862010-11-06T20:23:20.858+11:002010-11-06T20:23:20.858+11:00It is hard, Persiflage to cope with some of the ho...It is hard, Persiflage to cope with some of the horrors of our experience these days. the sharp juxtaposition of rich and poor, not only in so-called third world countries now but here in relatively comfortable Australia. <br /><br />Of course it is all relative and there are places where the poverty is more obvious than less, places like in central Australia I imagine. <br /><br />We all need to find ways of coping with these divisions in our worlds, but it is still distressing. Thanks Persiflage.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-79070287592175768422010-11-06T17:52:00.783+11:002010-11-06T17:52:00.783+11:00It is such a difficult issue. When I visited New Y...It is such a difficult issue. When I visited New York in 1989 I was shocked to see all the homeless people and the beggars. The I noticed that begging was how they made their living - they stood in the subway asking for the amount of a fare. I recognised the same faces on the trains.<br />Now in Australia there are people sitting near the traffic light, on the pavements. It is very confronting, but many times I harden my heart and do not give. The lack of honesty and transparency bothers me.<br />I had one of those 'ring' encounters in Rome. I did give money, but the woman asked for more! She resisted suggestions that we go to the police and hand in the ring. A nice wide brass one, it was. And a well known scam!<br />Like many of those who have commented, I have conflicting views and some of them make me not very proud of myself.persiflagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05161607100227748374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-85261529423091261562010-11-06T15:39:16.429+11:002010-11-06T15:39:16.429+11:00As Orwell, says 'begging is hard work' I s...As Orwell, says 'begging is hard work' I suspect, Mim. <br /><br />Certainly for some. For others, maybe not.<br /><br />And the psychological state of someone forced to beg on the streets changes the picture, as far as I'm concerned. <br /><br />They deserve our compassion, not our scorn. <br /><br />Thanks, Mim.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-8969055484114861012010-11-06T15:35:35.136+11:002010-11-06T15:35:35.136+11:00'God helps those who helps themelves...he like...'God helps those who helps themelves...he likes them the most' - that assumes he or she has a say in the matter. <br /><br />Fortune plays a part in life's lottery but equally there are those who are given very little who make the most of it and those who get a great deal who seem unable to make much of anything. <br /><br />It's complex, I'd say, <br />Robert. <br /><br />Thanks.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-12401454217948383232010-11-06T10:53:50.241+11:002010-11-06T10:53:50.241+11:00I've always liked George Orwell's take on ...I've always liked George Orwell's take on beggars: begging is hard work. <br /><br />When I can, I give to the mentally ill on the streets.<br /><br />Anonymous giving is best for me . . .Mimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13039776441665375475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-20619193664154175022010-11-05T13:10:52.329+11:002010-11-05T13:10:52.329+11:00Phoenix when it comes to greed and self-interest n...Phoenix when it comes to greed and self-interest nothing beats Australia. When it comes to a rat race Melbourne would terrify New York. Our version of the Democrats is a barker in front of a sideshow tent, pockets stuffed with $$$.<br /><br />You were right the first time, God does help those who help themselves, he loves them most.R.H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04639593801088008224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-51516255864626966892010-11-05T08:43:57.685+11:002010-11-05T08:43:57.685+11:00I was not one bit offended, Phoenix. You are alwa...I was not one bit offended, Phoenix. You are always respectful and I really value your comments. <br /><br />I also understand your frustration given the politics in your country where greed and self interest seem to be taking over from thoughtfulness, compassion and basic generosity towards others less fortunate. <br /><br />I feel very worried when I hear about the mid term election results. <br /><br />They reflect a terrible trend throughout the world, I suspect, of xenophobia gone mad and people saying look at me me me. But that's what happens when people feel desperate and disenfranchised. <br /><br />These difficulties are complex.<br /><br />Here in Australia with compulsory voting we are tending to get a fifty fifty split between conservative and left leaning forces, which is probably a more accurate reflection of the actual state of play.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-12628719112510142762010-11-05T08:03:41.788+11:002010-11-05T08:03:41.788+11:00I came back to apologize for the last two parts of...I came back to apologize for the last two parts of my comment. (starting with the "Also:"). I thought about it all night long and realized, much to my chagrin, that the frustration I showed in those last two paragraphs was much less about you and this post and more about the state of politics in my own nation. Even though you were kind enough to thank me for these comments, I don't feel that they were very measured and reading them back to myself come across as highly triggered by something that has little to with your post. <br /><br />For that, I apologize sincerely. I was wrong to do that. The politics in the US have reached such a height of tension and hyperbole that I was very emotional and not the best version of myself when I wrote that comment.<br /><br />I hope you know that I always want to be respectful and kind when I comment on anyone's posts, but your posts in particular reach such a level of thoughtfulness that I aim even higher when leaving comments for you. :)Phoenixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07477498671080132176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-25670937087374707192010-11-04T21:50:47.961+11:002010-11-04T21:50:47.961+11:00I agree Kass, Phoexix's thoughts on the matter...I agree Kass, Phoexix's thoughts on the matter are helpful. <br /><br />I suspect most of us are somewhat split or divided when it comes to giving. <br /><br />There are so many variables that come into play, not simply the nature of the request but also the where, when and how of us as givers. <br /><br />Thanks, Kass.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-67992653302037962302010-11-04T21:48:10.495+11:002010-11-04T21:48:10.495+11:00Thanks, Tracy. It's true. The worst kind of ...Thanks, Tracy. It's true. The worst kind of hypocrite is the one who tramples on others under the guise of offering kindness.<br /><br />I agree, too that it's important first and foremost to give people respect, no matter how abject they might appear.<br /><br />One of my brothers talked recently about getting more bees when you use honey rather than vinegar. <br /><br />It seems an apt metaphor for other things as well. <br /><br />Thanks for your thoughtful and measured response, Phoenix/Tracy.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-73462446501144302932010-11-04T21:43:21.711+11:002010-11-04T21:43:21.711+11:00That's a good thought, Nick.
I like it when ...That's a good thought, Nick. <br /><br />I like it when folks add humour. It helps reduce the pain.<br /><br />Thanks.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-88024837325266875332010-11-04T16:22:39.360+11:002010-11-04T16:22:39.360+11:00Your posts are always so thoughtful. I'm kind ...Your posts are always so thoughtful. I'm kind of schizophrenic when it comes to people who beg. Sometimes I give money - other times I resent them for reminding me how hard times are for so many people.<br /><br />I'm glad I read Phoenix's comment. It gave me more perspective on this topic.Kasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05233330248952156754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-75317325959931614852010-11-04T11:03:33.146+11:002010-11-04T11:03:33.146+11:00This is a hard post to read because it is so incre...This is a hard post to read because it is so incredibly, deeply honest. Most people will not admit to themselves, or others, that they do not respect begging, nor do they want to give into the pressure of giving to those in need (or not in need, as we are never quite sure.)<br /><br />I will say right now that I am someone who gives cash and food, and has paid for full meals, for those who claim to be needy. My immediate thought is always: if they are feeling down enough to degrade themselves to ask for assistance, then surely I can give them something, as I am not as bad off as they are.<br /><br />A lot of times, when I had no food or cash to give, I simply looked the person in the eye, apologized sincerely, and told them that I was keeping them in my thoughts. The responses to this were incredible - people lit up, they teared up, reached out to grab my hand in thanks. <br /><br />Then I got it. I got that these people don't need money, and they don't need food, as much as they need to be treated like human beings. The respect and consideration I can take the time to show someone is invaluable; there is no amount of food or money on this planet that is an equal substitute for being treated like a human being.<br /><br />And so I give respect to people, in whatever form I can. Nobody is below deserving to be treated like a human being; and it costs nothing, it takes nothing away from you in any way, shape, or form, to do so.<br /><br />Homeless people, gypsies, druggies; they are on the streets because they do not understand that what they need above all else is to be loved. You lose nothing and you gain everything by giving them this tiny little miracle.<br /><br />Also: and I'm not saying you do this, so please don't take offense - I have no respect for people who claim to be charitable and kind and loving and yet say that God helps those who help themselves. God lifts up those who lift up each other, and it is our job as citizens of this planet to help each other stand up. We belong to each other.<br /><br />We do not trample upon others, or ignore the needy, under the guise of kindness. That is as manipulative as the woman you encountered with the gold ring.Phoenixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07477498671080132176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-71066202905746408992010-11-03T23:17:06.431+11:002010-11-03T23:17:06.431+11:00I would have asked the woman if she had matching e...I would have asked the woman if she had matching earrings, too.nickhttp://getnickt.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-13503992538349711942010-11-03T22:27:27.569+11:002010-11-03T22:27:27.569+11:00'A tithe to conscience' is a good way to p...'A tithe to conscience' is a good way to put it, Robert. Some people give to assuage their guilt. <br /><br />This is Maria Tumarkin's point. Sometimes it does not help. Sometimes people can go on unnecessarily tortured by things they cannot alleviate.<br /><br />Thanks, Robert.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-89637632199372792022010-11-03T21:45:02.869+11:002010-11-03T21:45:02.869+11:00Thanks, Anthony. Giving is a complex business, es...Thanks, Anthony. Giving is a complex business, especially when it feels as though it's extracted from us. Thanks.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-6985283484642996942010-11-03T21:43:58.527+11:002010-11-03T21:43:58.527+11:00Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a powerful stat...Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a powerful statement, AnnODyne and I agree there are some whose mental ill health makes it impossible for them to attend to what we consider basic needs. <br /><br />Like the fellow I described to Jim earlier. I suspect he came from a background where money was not an issue but something else turned him into a beggar of sorts. <br /><br />I sensed this man would feel triumphant if he'd managed to extract money from us, not that he actually needed it. <br /><br />I may be wrong of course, it was just my sense of him. A trickster rather than a beggar. <br /><br />These issues are so complex. <br /><br />Thanks, AnnODyne.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-49557625023617221492010-11-03T21:37:55.139+11:002010-11-03T21:37:55.139+11:00I suppose not being concerned about whether or not...I suppose not being concerned about whether or not someone is tricking you reduces the need for feedback, Kleinstemotte. <br /><br />Still we like to know that our intentions are met to some extent at least when we give, and yet there are no guarantees.<br /><br />Thanks for your thoughts here, Kleinstemotte.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-24192463876782086912010-11-03T21:12:13.549+11:002010-11-03T21:12:13.549+11:00It is very hard, Weaver, to work out how and when ...It is very hard, Weaver, to work out how and when to give. <br /><br />I'm like you. I go for the local charities. Closer to home feels safer but then, like you, I can also feel overwhelmed by the needs of those far afield. <br /><br />It's such a minefield. Thanks, Weaver.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-49807917199794344992010-11-03T21:08:04.995+11:002010-11-03T21:08:04.995+11:00I agree, it is sometimes as hard, if not harder to...I agree, it is sometimes as hard, if not harder to receive than to give, Two Tigers. <br /><br />We tend to be as fearful of the bottomless pit of others' vulnerabilities as we are of our own. <br /><br />I think this makes giving more difficult, especially giving to strangers, to those whom we do not know but with whom we can still identify from afar.<br /><br />Thanks, Two tigers for such a generous and thoughtful comment.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-45440685986910994872010-11-03T21:03:42.266+11:002010-11-03T21:03:42.266+11:00You're right Laoch. I was impressed the other...You're right Laoch. I was impressed the other day when someone told me how her husband when approached by a neighbour for money – the neighbouring family was clearly in trouble, criminal background, under employed parents, no regular income etc. – he refused to give money as the father had asked for the kids’ lunches, instead he invited the father in and proceeded to make up lunches from food in his fridge. That way, he reasoned, the money would get to where he intended – into the children’s bellies. <br /><br />Thanks Laoch.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-58342652983982500842010-11-03T21:01:44.347+11:002010-11-03T21:01:44.347+11:00I too want to give to the genuine folks, Willow, b...I too want to give to the genuine folks, Willow, but it is often hard to work out who's genuine. Hence our struggle.<br /><br />Worthiness is in the eye of the beholder. <br /><br />Thanks, Willow.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28133718.post-25457300443136532832010-11-03T20:59:15.255+11:002010-11-03T20:59:15.255+11:00It is a sad indictment of society, Jim, our tenden...It is a sad indictment of society, Jim, our tendency to distrust those who claim need. <br /><br />A few years ago on our way to a restaurant for dinner one Friday night my husband and I encountered a man who to all intents and purposes looked respectable. A man in his mid thirties in casual trousers and shirt with a brief case in hand. <br /><br />This man looked a bit worse for wear, drunk I thought. As we walked by he stopped us. We stopped because we were close to home and he looked and sounded as I said, 'respectable'.<br /><br />The man then gave us a long spiel about how he had been to a farewell party for his work as a lawyer. He had only that day sold his practice and had gone into the city for a few drinks to celebrate. <br /><br />How he came to be sitting on a clump of bricks outside a block of flats in the middle of the main road in Camberwell is beyond me but he said he had stopped with friends at the pub and after some time drinking he had decided to get a tram to the station after which he planned to take a train back home to Frankston. <br /><br />None of these places will make sense to you but Frankston is some twenty five kilometers from where we live. <br /><br />This man then told us how he had lost his wallet. He had been forced to ring his sister he said and she had promised to collect him but he had already been waiting for an hour or more. <br /><br />Clearly coming from Franston herself it might take his sister ages to arrive. Could we please give him twelve dollars to cover the cost of his train fare.<br /><br />None of it made much sense in real terms. I wanted to give the fellow the money, but my husband wanted to be sure he was authentic.<br /><br />We stood for at least thirty hours quizzing him. One minute he seemed genuine, the next minute not. <br /><br />In the end we walked on and the man chased us and accused us of voting for the conservative party. <br /><br />I began to wonder whether he might have a disorder of some sort. He made little sense in the scheme of things.<br /><br />I have known people who shop lift from supermarkets, not because they need the money or the goods but because they are angry with the so-called multinatytionals.<br /><br />This tale above is at a tangent but it days something more about the difficulty of giving to strangers.<br /><br />Thanks, Jim.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04015624747225433940noreply@blogger.com